Tim (00:00.238)
I will mute myself and hide myself and then you all can take it away.

Mike (00:07.274)
Welcome to Open Ed Mic, a podcast where voices from across the educational landscape share insights, stories, and strategies for transforming learning through openness. Whether you're new to open education or a seasoned practitioner, Open Ed Mic invites you into the conversation. Let's hear who's joining joining let's hear who is joining us today. Kevin?

Kevin Corcoran (00:31.421)
Hi, this is Kevin Gorcorgan from the University of Central Florida.

Mike (00:34.815)
Zack.

Zach (00:38.524)
Hi everybody, this is Zach Kleba. I'm at Dominican University, just outside of Chicago, Illinois.

Mike (00:43.794)
And we are missing our colleague Brittany Dudek. We wish her well and look forward to her joining in a future episode. Today's guest is Dr. Rajiv Jean Ghiani, one of the most influential voices in open education, inclusive pedagogy, and ethical educational technology. Rajiv is the Vice Provost Teaching and Learning at Brock University in Ontario, Canada, where he also holds faculty appointments in educational studies and psychology.

and directs the Inclusive Education Research Lab. His scholarship focuses on open educational practices, student-centered pedagogies, inclusive teaching, and ethical approaches to educational technology. Many in the open education community know Rajiv as the architect of Canada's first zero textbook, cost degree programs, and as a co-author of Open Psychology Textbooks.

And as a co-editor of major works, including Open the Philosophy and Practices that are revolutionizing education and science, and Open at the Margins, Critical Perspectives on Open Education. But Rajiv's work has never been only about textbooks. It has consistently asked deeper questions: who gets to participate in knowledge creation? Whose knowledge is valued? How do we design learning environments that are more

just, more inclusive, and more humane. And as new technologies reshape teaching and learning, how can open education help institutions choose futures rooted in care, agency, equity, and the public good? He has worked with institutions and organizations across continents to advance open education, and he serves on the Open Education Global Board of Directors, bringing a global perspective to questions of access, equity,

Technology and educational change. Rajiv work Rajiv's work invites us to think beyond the adoption of open resources and toward a more expansive vision of openness, one that includes open pedagogy, student partnership, institutional transformation, ethical technology, and social justice. We're thrilled to welcome someone whose career has helped shape not only where open education has been, but where it might go next.

Mike (03:05.14)
And I will add, I'm sure that each of us here has been influenced in some way by his work and each of us call him a friend. Welcome, Rajiv.

Rajiv Jhangiani (03:14.371)
My goodness, thank you so much. That was an exceptionally kind introduction. It's a privilege to be with you all.

Mike (03:20.244)
Rajiv, we're gonna start out talking about your origin story. You've worked as a social psychologist, open textbook author, researcher, administrator, and global advocate for open education. What's your origin story? How did you first find your way into open education and what made it feel like more than a textbook affordability issue?

Rajiv Jhangiani (03:41.338)
Hmm. You know, I love that question. And I I I suppose I think about an origin story in a couple of ways over here. One is, you know, what what you sort of realize almost retrospectively once you connect the dots, rather than, you know, where where people think it began. and for me, I think I can point to two things. One is, you know, I was a faculty member, sort of minding my own business, you know, atop the assigning commercial textbooks, teaching classes the way I was

taught to teach, I suppose, or that had been modeled for me. and then of course, thanks to some professional development activities at Thomson Rivers University, where I was working part-time as a as an open learning faculty member for distance learning students effectively. I learned about OER and it sort of blew my mind. So I saw that BC campus at the time, this was a long, long time ago, they were launching a an open textbook project with the support of the province here in British Columbia. and they were looking for reviewers for open textbooks. So I put my hand up

I found one on their list that I was interested in looking at. I found another one that wasn't on their list. I asked if I could review that, ended up a adapting it and adopting it later that summer, and then then I was off to the races, right? Adopting it, evaluating the impact on student outcomes, advocating, researching all of that. But what I would like to share as well is is you know, looking back, I I can see the natural connection in terms of why all of that resonated in that moment, right? Because like like many people.

You know, I I I come from a lens where, you know, when you experience, I suppose, a lack of privilege, it's easier to understand the absence of privilege. and when I came to Canada as an international student, like many international students, I was struggling with food insecurity, you know, obviously struggling with a sense of belongingness. and a lot of that support, even just to come here, came from my grandparents, who invested in my education to come abroad.

And I'll share a bit of a personal story over here because, you know, they paid my tuition for my first few semesters until I could get a job on campus and pay my own way. I remember it was a a couple of years in, they came to visit me. And the part that's beautiful for me is and and it's not it's not just beautiful, it's bittersweet, is they changed my life in a in a very big way. Because I'd lost my father, we'd lost our home. They were the ones who invested in in in me and making it possible to come abroad and study. And so it was only

Rajiv Jhangiani (06:07.449)
They were they were with me in the summer for a few weeks. They cut short their trip. they had to go on to the to the US to visit where my grandfather's brother lived. They cut short that trip, I mean. Then they headed back home because my grandmother just wanted to be home. and

You know, there was fog as they were looking at to land and they got rerouted. Long story. Ended up having to spend a a night extra in New Delhi where they spent the night with their with their other daughter, not my not my mother, but my mother's sister. I'm telling you this long story because these are two people who changed my life in in a very real way. And it was only about a week after they landed back in India after visiting with me and seeing that I was doing well and doing okay, that my grandmother passed.

And about 10 days after that, my grandfather passed. And this is why it's a bittersweet story for me, because these are people who changed my life. I think it's rare to get to spend time with people who do that just before they pass. But also because whenever I think about why did this matter to me? Why does this resonate so readily? And why has it been such a drive for me through my career? I I think for me it's because when people talk about higher education and how it's a

you know, a vehicle for economic and social mobility, how it unlocks human potential, how education can be transformative. It's not theoretical for me. And so for me, you know, this comes very much from from lived experience. and so I take it personally, I suppose, in a in a very real way, right? When there's an adjunct like I was at one point, cobbling together three three jobs without benefits, trying to make a way, if there's an international student or another student start struggling with food insecurity.

or somebody feeling a sense or lack of belonging, for me it's a very real connection. And so it's not academic, it's not career, it's not opportunity. This is personal for me.

Kevin Corcoran (08:04.67)
I it certainly shows the way that you've been ingrained into the open ed community and how you've become a an international name in this field. You mentioned BC campus and my God, they have done some amazing work over the last twenty years, whether it was David Porter or Maina Coolidge most recently or Clint or what have you. So just talking about those folks and how they've led. Normally we would ask a question towards the end of the conversation, but because of

your roadmap and and how prominent you've been in the in the community, we're gonna jump to the for the forefront with this and ask you to sort of think about the future of open. You know, between all these different factors around AI, which we've talked about considerably, inclusive access threats, what do you think is the most urgent need to address over the next, let's say, five to ten years? Are we at a point where open ed is at risk?

Is it an opportunity to reinvent itself or something completely different?

Rajiv Jhangiani (09:07.983)
Yeah, it's a it's such a big question. And of course I can't claim to have a crystal ball around me, but you know, when I think about the changes over the last couple of decades in in in open, you know, I think about where the tensions have been and where the growth has occurred as as the as the movement has has grown and matured, it has become more diverse and that's sometimes been perceived as almost divisive because the voices have no longer been singing from the same song sheet necessarily, necessarily.

Right. You'll see tensions around commercialization, for profit motivations, the mixing of the two. There'll be tensions around different types of open licenses. and and almost like, you know, it's hieroglyphics for for new educators, but it's almost like gang signs within the open education community sometimes. But the thing that I think is consistent are the values, right? So and and of course people are gonna be talking about Gen Eye now. especially when you talk about a movement where

attribution as a cornerstone of all of our all of our open licenses, for example, right? And and with a lot of Gen AI, part of that tension again, is is it's paving over the etymology of knowledge. It's it's it's obstructing attribution in many ways, among other problems, of course. So you know I also think about the kind of tensions around technologies and open source technologies and community control and community infrastructure.

So so I guess for me the common thread is whenever there have been these tensions, it is I think it's looked like tensions at the surface, but at the deeper level, what's been consistent is the tensions are are reflecting something that is feeling dissonant with the deeper values of openness. And so what I have faith in is that the values are are what are going to persist over here. How that I how that's specifically going to to manifest, the specific ways in which that's going to kind of shape the discussion.

Right with Gen EI, we're probably going to be talking about yes, open source models and attribution. We're going to be thinking about, you know, what is the role of the educator as we always have been. Not just, you know, we talked about this 20 years ago in terms of the proliferation of information on the on the internet. But it's different even further with with with open. So, you know, think while there's so much possibility over here, we can think about hyper-customization of OER.

Rajiv Jhangiani (11:32.868)
different clever ways in which adapters and funders can update and and and make things ever green in many ways, identifying things, translating things. To the extent that that is gonna happen in a way that is intention with those deeper values, I I think you'll still see really, really critical discussions. So so for me, if anything, I think the changes on the surface are are are are are I think going to beckon discussions that are going to seem

like there's divisiveness, like there's fracturing, right? There'll be people who see great opportunity to leverage new tools and new technologies in a way that that benefits specific agendas. But so I guess what I'm saying is I see a more critical discussion. I welcome that. I see a broadening of that discussion.

But I see it forcing even more explicit articulation of the deeper values that we're that we're trying to paddle towards over here. and that you know, this is a heterogeneous community, and that's not a bad thing. But for me, I think it'll come back to how can we stay true to the values of open educators? How can we, you know, support the work of educators ultimately and and and the real and the real learning that is needed for students.

and how can we do all of the above? And I say this with the values again in a way that that does not replicate and reinforce existing societal power higher power hierarchies, which is of course one of the great threats of Gen AI, along with some of the many possibilities. So more voices, louder voices, more critical discussions. but I think really at the deeper level, I as I said, i I think it'll reflect the same same deeper values, these discussions.

Kevin Corcoran (13:24.594)
I I wonder if you have an opinion on this. I I know that Clint, Lilan and BC campus has done a lot of work around open infrastructure and there's this native tie between open source software and the ev evolution of open licensed content. It seems that, you know, we've continued this movement, this fight t around open content, but the infrastructure, the platform that powers everything, has ebbed and flowed and I I I wonder

You know, a as you're looking forward, is it a challenge that we are building on top of commercial platforms to support open? Should we be looking at shared open platforms more broadly? Or is this just part of the nature is that eventually you're going to have to have commercial entities to that are supporting this this effort?

Rajiv Jhangiani (14:21.903)
I think it's an interesting question. I mean, I I I'm not convinced that that's the only path forward. and I wouldn't either lump commercial entities all together in in one group either. Right? I mean, I think there's there's ways in which, and perhaps, you know, just to point to an example that that resides within open education, Pressbooks is a is is an example, of course. They're not the only one. But there are commercial models where the underlying infrastructure is built on open source software.

It provides a value add, but it releases code into the open. So they enable, they support, they connect. It's not enclosing. It's not paywalling. It is there's a way to be a really good citizen of the world and also you know sustain your operations. And so I think there's there's models that work really well. I remember several years ago, Paul Stacey, former executive director of open education global, right, released a lovely book around

made with Creative Commons with a colleague and they profiled, I think twenty, twenty-five case studies of these kinds of business models. So I I do think it's possible. I I do think in some cases, you know, funders obviously are not necessarily a sustainable approach. But I even think about, you know, the work at universities, how that has shifted to be much more sustainable. Right? When I was at Quantlin Polytechnic University, we had

embedded OER use into so many courses through course marking students could identify. And those courses were consistently showing semester upon semester across all faculties lower DFW rates, so lower drop rates, lower sorry, withdrawal rates, yes, lower failure rates as well. That actually oddly translated into tuition retained by the institution. And that's just a small example.

But that kind of financial impact of you can do a good thing and it can actually have a beneficial effect, not just for students in terms of cost saving, not just in terms of educators and pedagogical flexibility, but also in terms of institutional finances. And it's able to then sustain those operations, invest in staffing, invest in infrastructure. So I I think there's several examples of how this work can be either done by commercial entities well, good citizenship and open in the commons.

Rajiv Jhangiani (16:41.683)
done in partnership with, done by nonprofits, done by organizations like universities. I do think it helps provide some some protection. And we've seen lots of examples of where you know people build on on commercial infrastructure. And it's not just that venture capitalists will, you know, somebody will buy the company, the the the modus operandi will change. But if we're sort of

Building a foundation that can crumble or worse still be enclosed at the whim of a CIO of or of shareholders, right? I I think that's a real danger. And I think that's what the open community has often felt is it is it is possible to do this, but for me it you know it's it's difficult ultimately to reconcile a primary duty to students with the primary obligation to shareholders. And that's part of the tension over here. So I think there's a way to do it. There's people who've demonstrated how to do it.

But yes, I I would always I always look to open source approaches or community-owned approaches or publicly funded approaches. and that's why you talk about BC Campus. Clint and I have been working we're working with the ministry over here. and even as Gen AI was becoming a really big thing, the attention was on developing an ethical framework for educational technologies that went to all of the universities in the province. Brock, we've just adopted one a year ago as well, an ethical framework for ed tech. So

I think, you know, it's not just about Gen AI, it's not even just about platforms to publish OER in. It's really thinking through what are you going to permit to enter your learning teaching and learning environment through whether it's through formal procurement and RFPs. because even over there, right? If if are you going to retrofit tools that are ablest? Are you going to deploy remote exam proctoring that has discriminatory algorithms?

Are you going to create OER in a way that can be enclosed and paywalled? The answer to all of those things should be no. but it's again driven by those same shared ethics. So I I think that's what I see more of is kind of structural approaches to thinking through what sort of foundation sorry, what sort of soil we're building our foundation on. right, because that's that's the danger for me is is

Rajiv Jhangiani (19:06.297)
being evicted, or the foundation falling apart because it sounds quicksand.

Mike (19:11.326)
Rajiv, talking about the the tensions, I quick question. Is it easier or harder now for educators to enter the open space because of all these tensions?

Rajiv Jhangiani (19:25.711)
Hmm. You know, I I I I suppose this may just be the eternal optimist in me. I don't see barriers over here. If anything, what I see is educators who've been sort of doing their own thing, perhaps, you know, a particular practice over year and year and year, who feel increasing discomfort, right? And of course, some of it comes from n unwanted changes in technology and what's that's provoking in terms of changes to assessment and other things. But

What I see is is people kind of thinking about, yes, what is their role as an educator and where they feel the magic, where they feel the joy. And I see that very much with with, you know, when that relational teaching really takes the fore, when they when they see the ma when they see the the light in their students' faces, when they cut to collaborate with colleagues. Mike, our institution, Brock University, joined the fellowship this year that that your institution.

Montgomery College pioneered, of course, the SDG Fellowship. Our first year at Brock, we've had more faculty members asking to participate in the fellowship than I did in my last year before I left Quantlin Polytechnic University. Right? I mean that's just I don't know if that's a that's a small indicator, but what I'm seeing today is these tensions for me are are manifesting in a visible first for educators for meaning, joy.

and ethics. A and for me, those three things are are really big, big kind of chorus lines i in the Song of Open.

Zach (21:07.333)
So Rajiv, kind of leaning a little bit more into the tension side of it and and really looking for ways where we can make a better future for open education, I think and this is something that's been kinda hanging around in the ether. can you think of one particular habit, assumption, or strategy that open ed practitioners and open ed activists?

activists, you know, and advocates focus in on that we need to let go of in order to allow the movement to grow and to be more inclusive of folks and things like that.

Rajiv Jhangiani (21:51.586)
I think I can think of a few, right? I mean, we've been talking about when are people gonna stop getting used to the idea of a textbook and move beyond that for for such a long time, right? But

I would think mainly about the the the tension that people feel when it comes to control right now. and I will say as someone who who supports faculty members, I have endless empathy and care for educators who've been just facing one change after another, particularly you think about the pandemic and and the fatigue and exhaustion that came from all of that. Only then to

to be met with the the tidal wave that was Gen Eye and agentic AI now and whatever else is c is coming down the pipe. So, you know, there's that that fatigue, that exhaustion. And and and I feel, you know, for many folks, that has led to some degree of I'm feeling less control. I want to regain more control. And so when I see responses from institutions that during the pandemic, we're gonna go down the route of remote exam proctoring, or when Jenny I came

came in in you know late 22 in a way that was much more wide widely available, gonna try we obviously need to go down the route of AI detection tools. But what I'm really seeing psychologically is a loss of control and a desire to regain control. And so when you ask about what what do I think people need to get let go of, is actually that more challenging part of letting go when it's whether it's open pedagogy, whether it's anything else like that, it's it's seeding that sense of I am here to deliver knowledge.

I'm the root and channel, the source of information. So I I think letting go of that sense of that is a critical part of my role as an educator is exceptionally difficult to do. I'm not saying we need to let go of it entirely, because with Gen AI, with any kind of information proliferation, in fact, expertise becomes even more valuable because you need to know enough to know when the information is wrong. But there is a decentering of the role of the educator as an open educator if you're

Rajiv Jhangiani (23:56.9)
collaborating with students, if you're shaping the learning journey, if you're you know, co-designing the learning experience, let alone thinking about open pedagogy in terms of assignments or anything else. So I think that's the piece for me is there are really, really low threshold ways to embrace open. That's why I think people will will c you know keep joining. But but you know, just as you can use an open textbook and you had

you know, Dan Williamson on on the podcast a few weeks weeks ago, right? You can use, especially you think about a print copy of an open stacks text, right? It looks and smells and probably tastes like a like a Pearson book, just without the bitter aftertaste. But you can use it in the same way as a Pearson book is the point, right? So you so that's I think the the bigger lesson is you can embrace OER, but not really change the underlying pedagogy. You can embrace open pedagogy, but you can actually do so in a way that's harmful.

you know, if you're not thinking about learner agency and and and and other other important critical aspects. So I think for me it comes back to that that sense of what is my role as an educator? And am I willing to disrupt that? Am I willing to step outside outside of that comfort zone? If I'm asking my students to do something that's uncomfortable and vulnerable for them, can I do this as well? and I think that's the more challenging aspect than technology or resources or texts.

Mike (25:20.638)
Rajiv, if you've worked with educators and open education communities across the globe, across countries, across continents, what has the global open education movement taught you that North American institutions still need to learn?

Rajiv Jhangiani (25:39.408)
Hmm. Gosh. That's an interesting question. And I think it's been so different in so many places. I think one of the reasons why I've loved attending global open education conferences in the first place is exactly this, is the conversation so different. Right? You go to that OER conference that's often in the well, usually in the UK or sometimes in Ireland, by the Association of Learning Technologies, you'll see the discussions are way more enthusiastic with critical pedagogy over there than they would be necessarily in every other context.

I I think, you know, in some places the history and practice and the adoption lags behind North America. So there's an interesting kind of emerging conversation. in some cases, I think the conversation highlights just how privileged our discussions are sometimes as well, right? If you're talking about basic questions, you know, one of my favorite conferences over the last year was the Pan Commonwealth Forum.

which is hosted every few years by the Commonwealth of Learning. And, you know, having interesting discussions with folks, particularly across the global south, around how they're dealing with serious access issues, not just not able to afford textbooks, but whether we're talking about, you know, you know political challenges in some cases, whether we're talking about basic infrastructure like electricity, you see how they're creatively addressing those challenges. So

I think for me what what what I learn a lot about is sometimes the practices that are being pioneered in contexts that are really, really different that we could learn from and import, rather than sort of, you know, assuming that, yeah, well, you know, the the gold standard is what's happening, you know, somewhere in North America. And of course, here's how you can do it, folks. Here's how we can do course marking, here's how you can publish open textbooks. Take a minute, take a step back, right? Because there's a lot to learn.

So, you know, shout out to be places I would say like the Open University of Sri Lanka would be a great example. Colleagues like Sharonika Karanaike over there, colleagues like Glenda Cox and her team at the University of Cape Town. there's some really, really fabulous work happening in several places that I I think we can all learn from. So I would encourage engagement with that, with that global audience, right? because when if we're thinking about even something, if I if I think to think about a an element of of

Rajiv Jhangiani (28:07.245)
you know, US politics and history and culture, you know, Chris Gilliard has written about digital redlining, for example. I think there's really interesting lessons from other parts of the world in terms of approaching challenges like that and and you know historical harm like that. but yeah I think you're right to ask the question. and that's one of the joys of this space as well is

This community is large and it is so much larger outside of the North American bubble.

Kevin Corcoran (28:42.633)
Have you seen any noticeable differences in the way that Canada approaches open versus the United States? And is there any words of wisdom?

Rajiv Jhangiani (28:54.287)
Think Kevin froze over there, but I I did think I I think I got the gist of the question over there. mainly differences between how Canada and and and US institutions perhaps approach open education. I I think one of the main differences I see is most institutions in Canada are publicly funded. right. Though there are, of course, private institutions, but they're in the minority, for example. and there is a lot more emphasis, and yes, we have universal healthcare and other things.

But there is a sense of the importance of public funding, public investment, community infrastructure, in a broader sense. so I think what I see is a lot more I mean it there's there's obviously good examples to point to, whether it's British Columbia or Ontario or other provinces that have invested in the space. I think there's a degree of what

you know, when we talk about articulation of courses, places like BC again have done a fabulous job of when a student takes takes a course in one institution versus another, it translates automatically. They don't have to make a bespoke request that has to be assessed individually. So I think the sense of sharing and communication and community is there. It's obviously a much smaller environment as well. and that doesn't hurt because it is a small world, right? People know each other. so reputations, relationships matter a whole lot more.

so when people are doing something, we learn from each other, we share our practices very readily.

So I think then maybe that's part of it over here. but it's something I don't I want to reflect on, right? I think about the work of of you know people, everyone from you know Stephen Downs and and Dave Cormier and kind of the origin of of MOOCs. I think about you know the work on on of course on BC Campus and other kind of large you know government funded

Rajiv Jhangiani (30:56.496)
organizations that support sectors. I have to wonder why why is the ground more f you know feeling like it's fairly fertile over here. It's it's certainly not in terms of finances and resources and and the leading edge necessarily of what's happening in in in Silicon Valley. But for me I think there is a very strong sense of education as a public good. And maybe that translates into into quite a bit. There is a sense of

shared values that has a lot to do with ethics and care and service. Maybe that plays into it. But you know, of course it's it's in a it's also in a a very, very privileged place. abundance of resources, abundance of land, not some of the same challenges in many parts of the world. So perhaps that also creates an opportunity to think about other possibilities without some of those

graver threats. but something I'll probably reflect on, I think. It's it's a fabulous place to live and work, no doubt.

Kevin Corcoran (32:04.773)
Tak taking a s sort of a step back, at least what I'm hearing, you know, there's the this the question that Mike had and my follow-up is about broader perspectives and and having more of a global view on this. But I I see this tied to s the work around open at the margins and making sure that a variety of voices are heard, that it's not just solely focused in one geographic area, but that's not even what the the gist of that is. Can you talk a little bit about open at the margins and how that

factors into the future of the open community.

Rajiv Jhangiani (32:38.584)
Yeah, I mean Open at the Margins was was really interesting project. I approached a a a few colleagues whom and you know this so often happens, is people I just adore and admire and ask if they'd like to collaborate on something, and they all magically said yes. But it really came from an interesting time in the in the movement as well, where there was this critical discussion and it bubbled up in different ways, right? There was the open education conference, which went through its a real big transition away from how it was managed over several years to

To more of a community-driven enterprise. And it was palpable for me, the sense of diverse voices, increasingly voices, whether it's from the global south, whether it's from racialized folks, whether it was student voices, being perceived as not just critical, but being divisive. And so I think it was a need to kind of pull those voices together. Often they were published or not published.

in not the the main channels or portals of the field. So not necessarily, you know, the main journals of open education. So we wanted to pull to together existing writings, existing presentations that that I think articulated that that a criticality but also that that that sort of plural pluralism in many ways

So i it was a definitely a labor of love. We approached people and said, Hey, would you be interested in in contributing this? We love this piece of yours. and people said yes. And it was intended at the time as as being perhaps, you know, volume one. Perhaps we'll revisit this in a few years and and look at volume two. But I think one of the things I've I've enjoyed over the years, and and you can see this from, you know, who's being invited to keynote events? you know, who is is

sure podcast as well, but whose voices are at the table, right? And I think we've we've gone from there was a time when when some tables did not feel like they were very inviting. And it felt like, okay, this is almost one of those Shirley Chisholm moments where, you know, it's not you you you sort of build your own table if you need to. but increasingly I feel like, you know, I think about the number of indigenous scholars who've been keynoting open education events. I think about

Rajiv Jhangiani (35:02.068)
Student panels have become almost a mainstay of the open education conference now. not almost they have been, and many other regional events as well. So I think, you know, with the help of groups, I mean, librarians are right up there in terms of the groups that have been pushing for this kind of change, I think there has been a power shift in how open educators are communicating, who's speaking, who's invited. And it's felt less compelling to me recently that.

Okay, we need an a volume two of open at the margins because those marginal voices are less marginal today. Not all of them, of course, but more people are listening to deliberately inviting, and asking to hear those formerly marginalized voices. And so for me, that's one of those more welcome pieces. So that was a labor of love. I I think it was it was very much at the time feeling like exclusion.

at a time that was increasingly dangerous. And today I would say, you know, there's still a lot of that, right? We have to think critically about, and I'm sorry to say this, hosting a global open education conference, or one that claims to be global, in the United States, where it's not safe. It's not welcome for many folks around the world. What does that do? How do we support the US open education community at the same time that needs this more than ever?

Right. So that's just one example of the kind of critical discussion that I think we need. But I see that critical discussion happening more and more and more. Right. We used to have to really push people to think about accessibility and think about the student voice. Don't have to do that so much anymore. Now we're pushing in other directions. so yeah, I mean I welcome, you know, thoughts about if there's if if there's another round over here, but I I think for us it was a we saw a real need to to to, you know, put it together.

Because we could see and not everybody knew and people coming into the movement wouldn't know that, you know, there was this one blog on Chris Gilliard's website, and Mahabali wrote this other piece over here, and Audrey Waters wrote this fabulous article in this other place. And really, if you want to approach this work as a critical open educator, your hope would be this would be a great starter pack because now you're not just thinking, rah, rah, rah, OER. no, you need to do this work critically or you're gonna gonna do gonna do some harm. So that that was the purpose of that in many ways.

Rajiv Jhangiani (37:24.888)
But I see so much infusion of that criticality. I think about the open education network. Even before it was, you know, led by my, you know, dear, dear friend and absolute superhero Robin DeRosa, they were really, really doing fabulous work critically. So, you know, I think organizing has become an infused that criticality, which is lovely.

Kevin Corcoran (37:46.463)
Maybe the silver lining with the OA Global being in the States is that finally North American or at least the United States attendees will get exposed to international voices and thoughts.

Rajiv Jhangiani (38:00.003)
Yeah, I mean, of course, I think, you know, it's good to see that even the open education conference itself has become more and more international over the years and years. and yes, OE Global will be at MIT, which is a fabulous thing to celebrate, right? for folks who are unaware, the you know, the launch of MIT Open Courseware was one of those major events in the early history of of or the modern the early history of the modern history of of open education.

but it will be a hybrid conference as well. So it will allow for a lot of of engagement. But yes, that's that certainly should be on people's list. the OER conference, as I said, in the UK is another one. the Pan Pan Commonwealth Forum is another one. but you know, places like Australia have been organizing beautifully as well. there's there's growing communities around the world. but I think yes, it there's so many educators in the in the US as well who you know feel

a public betrayal of the values that they bring to work every day. and I think they need this event too.

Zach (39:03.548)
So kind of s switching back to you had mentioned Robin DeRosa and your work together with her and you know, things around student panels and bringing in the student voice. So you co-founded the open pedagogy notebook with Robin. And we're just really curious, you know, what have you learned from seeing educators share open pedagogical practices across different contexts, disciplines, and institutions?

Rajiv Jhangiani (39:33.294)
yeah, you make me smile every time you say her name because she's just, you know, so close to my heart, that woman. for those who are listening on the podcast, over my right shoulder the team can see a wooden carved block that's a 3D carving that says C C B Y and that was carved by by Robin's partner. So shout out to Phil.

Rajiv Jhangiani (40:00.269)
And I think with the open pedagogy notebook, and again, that's one of those things where yes, we did that, and it was it felt like it was a useful thing at the time to pre create not just a a place where people could browse through examples of open pedagogy and practice for inspiration at the assignment level, at the course level, but also share, right? It was an open invitation to share. I think part of it is what you see when you have conversations with people about open pedagogy. One is, and especially back then, you know.

The term open pedagogy may have been foreign to them, but they may have been practicing open pedagogy in many ways without the language, right? But it's also a sense of, really, my thing is worth sharing? You think anybody's interested in this? So that's always fun. And and it's sort of like when you publish OER. You think, okay, I can put this I can put this here. and that's one thing. And you kind of forget about it. But when you get those emails from, you know, I still get these emails monthly. you know, hey, you know, Dr. Jang Yani, I'm I'm

I'm so-and-so. I'm a student in this university in Turkey and we're using your textbook. And thank you so much for I'm just like, my God. So I think part of that joy is there is value, there is meaning. And it's it you can never see the downstream impact of this work, of practicing in the open, right? And and building on each other's work is exciting. So I I think there was a joy in in people being able to think, there isn't people actually interested in what I'm doing.

But the real joy comes from when you hear from people who are building on your work and have taken it further. You know, that your idea w led to something much bigger and much better. It's like keep saying it's like the gift that gets re-gifted more and more and more over time. But each time it's regifted, it gets more dear in some magical way. So it it's it I think it it allows you to feel like part of a much bigger thing and you're able to see it in a little way.

right. There was that whole thing about it's never the same river because the water's always flowing. Yeah. But it's not just that. It it's it's it's it's flown past you, you've you've participated in it, and then you're you're you're getting, you know, postcards from downstream or photographs about how people have enjoyed that very same thing. it's hard to explain, right? But we all want to feel like we're part of something bigger than ourselves.

Rajiv Jhangiani (42:22.967)
OER does that in a in a really interesting way and open pedagogy absolutely does. But I think it's not just impact on students, it's connecting to other educators. It's feeling seen as as an educator as well in what you're contributing to the world.

Mike (42:38.13)
Rajiv, we're about at time but I wanna give you a minute, if you could, to talk about what gives you hope for the future of open education.

Rajiv Jhangiani (42:51.943)
well, I am the eternal optimist. So f so for me I would say I don't see an alternative to hope. because if I were to contemplate navigating the world as it is today, as it could be tomorrow without hope, that's not something I'm willing to contemplate. To so to to me hope is is just the the default. you know, I think there's too much magic in the world.

I see this all over, right? I see this in in students. I see it in you know, shout out to Oya Pakal, a graduate student I've been working with for several years, who keeps going from strength to strength and contributes in ways that that I'm excited to see what she does next. She's gonna set this world on fire in open education. so yes, I see it in students. I see it in the joy of that educators rediscover when they've been teaching for 25 years and they stumble upon open pedagogy.

And they they reacquaint themselves with the values that brought them into this work. And you know, after feeling jaded and exhausted and fatigued. So I see far too much magic to to live without hope. But as I said, more to the point, contemplating life without hope for me is not something I'm willing to do. So there's no other option for me.

Mike (44:09.758)
Well, I think you've given us all hope, with your answers today. Thank you.

Rajiv Jhangiani (44:15.107)
Thanks, my friend. This has been so much fun. Love wish you could talk for much longer.

Zach (44:19.963)
Well, this really has been such a wonderful conversation, Rajiv, and I mean I'm sure people are gonna get, you know, a lot out of it and we really do appreciate you taking the time. So I do have to apologize that now we have to end on our really terrible joke, which is a regular tradition for our podcast. and this joke is always generated by AI.

So, here's the joke. Why did the open educator bring a ladder to class?

Zach (44:59.921)
Because they wanted to help students reach the highest level of blooms without putting it behind a paywall.

Mike (45:06.166)
Zack. Zack. Zack. Zack.

Zach (45:08.497)
Prom pom t

Rajiv Jhangiani (45:10.511)
my goodness, my goodness. What did they say? Maslow before blooms, right? But the good thing is if you're doing it as an open educator, you are addressing Maslow.

Mike (45:19.74)
And with that the mic is closed.

Kevin Corcoran (45:27.679)
All right. So we have to hang on for a little bit. Tim are how we doing on uploads? I'm probably the one that's lagging.

Tim (45:35.342)
actually everybody looks good. so the only let's see, let me only thing is if Mike wanted to just like do a quick little and on Mike before you know, if you want to do that now or or we can just like skip it, but it would be a little odd that you didn't introduce yourself at all, Mike.

Zach (45:49.084)
Yeah.

Mike (46:00.436)
Yeah. I thought, Tim, I'd let everyone else go and I can hang on and and do it. If that's fine, or I can do Okay.

Tim (46:07.002)
yeah, or if you if you just record it right now, just say your little thing and then I'll I'll throw it in there.

Mike (46:12.574)
Okay. And I'm Mike Mills, recently retired after thirty five years in higher education.

Tim (46:20.246)
Cool. All right, let me stop the recording now.