Mike Mills (00:02.308)
Welcome to Open Ed Mike, a podcast where voices from across the educational landscape share insights, stories, and strategies for transforming learning through openness. Whether you're new to open education or a seasoned practitioner, Open Ed Mike invites you into the conversation. Let's see who's joining us today. Kevin.

Kevin Corcoran (00:26.552)
Hi, this is Kevin Corcoran. I'm from the University of Central Florida here located in Orlando, Florida.

Mike Mills (00:32.966)
Britney.

Brittany Dudek (00:39.039)
system.

Mike Mills (00:40.422)
Brittany, you were muted at the beginning.

Brittany Dudek (00:44.115)
Hi, this is Brittany Dudek, Director of Learning Resources at the Colorado Community College System.

Mike Mills (00:49.388)
And I'm Mike Mills, retired associate senior vice president in academic affairs at Montgomery College in Maryland. I do want to say we're missing our colleague, Zach Clayball today. Look forward to having Zach join us in an upcoming episode. Today's guest is Virginia Clinton Lassell, associate professor of educational foundations and research at the University of North Dakota and a leading scholar

in educational psychology with a focus on reading, motivation, and learning in digital environments. Virginia's work brings a critical and much needed lens to open education, asking not just whether students have access to materials, but how those materials shape learning, engagement, and success. Her research has explored how students interact with digital text, how format influences comprehension,

and how open educational resources compare to traditional materials and supporting student outcomes. Importantly, Virginia's scholarship challenges some of the assumptions in open education by grounding the conversation in evidence. She helps us move beyond advocacy alone to ask deeper questions. When does open work best, for whom, and under what conditions?

In a field that sometimes leans heavily on cost savings as its primary metric, Virginia's work reminds us that learning and the science behind it must remain central. We're excited to have a researcher who helps bridge open education and learning science in meaningful ways. Virginia, welcome to the podcast.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (02:39.17)
Thank you so much for having me here.

Mike Mills (02:42.576)
We want to start out this conversation by talking about your origin story and how did you come to study reading motivation and digital learning and how did that connect to open education?

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (02:50.478)
You

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (02:58.232)
Well, thankfully these topics actually did connect quite well. So when I started teaching at the University of North Dakota, I was an instructor and I taught in the psychology department. had a large undergraduate courses. So, you know, 200 plus students in intro to psych. And I was shocked by how much marketing the textbook publishing companies directed my way. I remember one week.

I had six publishing reps come to my door. And sometimes their tactics would be rather aggressive or creative where they would hire students to come to my office. And then I would invite them in thinking that they're my students, because I have hundreds of students, so I don't recognize them all.

And then find out that this was actually somebody the publishing company had hired to try to sell me their wares. And the same time I had students express frustration about the cost of course materials. know, with intro to psych, was, you can't just go without a textbook. I don't know all of psychology off the top of my head and the students need that reference.

for learning the content. So when I found out there was an initiative at the University of North Dakota, well, it was actually a statewide initiative. I took advantage of the opportunity because I taught so many students. I was highly sought after again, but this time for more altruistic means that the thinking was that if I changed courses over to OER, then that's

that would have a lot of impact on students because of the number of students I had in my courses. And I went to a training. I got to hear Tanya Spillivoy speak and she's so enthusiastic and saw the evidence and decided to try it. Now I am very much a researcher by training. So.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (05:13.558)
I was already of the thinking of if I'm going to try something new in my classes, I'm going to test it. So I conducted a study then. So I compared one semester of teaching and entered a psych with a commercial textbook and then another semester with an open textbook. Now, I mean, now there's hundreds of these studies out that it's not really a novel approach, but at the time this was very badly needed work. And

I found a slight benefit of learning, which I was all excited, but then I looked at high school GPA and it was the same increase. So probably no effect on actual learning and just a sign of better academic preparation. But I did find a remarkable decrease in course withdrawal. So similarly to this, I've been trained as a reading comp-

reading researcher that was my focus in my PhD from a cognitive standpoint. And I had students comment on not liking e-books and not liking any of the electronic materials. And I had explained like, you can print out the open textbook and that seemed to.

appeal to some students because sometimes they misunderstood that you could only see it online. And anyway, that did get me curious if there actually was a difference between reading from paper and reading from screens, because at that time, commercial textbooks were almost always paper, hard copy materials and OER were digital. And we did look into if students would print out.

if they were encouraged to. And I believe it was something like two out of 150 students actually print out their open textbooks.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (07:14.958)
But my wondering then was, is there a difference between reading from paper and reading from a screen? And from a cognitive standpoint, it didn't make sense to me that there would be. But again, being empirically trained, I test assumptions. I don't rely on them. So I conducted a meta-analysis which went academic viral where I...

found out that I was wrong, there was a benefit of paper over screens. But really, there's gonna be no benefit of any material that isn't affordable and available. So, yeah, I've never seen that as a reason to be opposed to OER, open education, and now most textbooks and most materials are digital. it's that argument has kind of...

faded away.

Kevin Corcoran (08:18.194)
Virginia, I wonder if I can piggyback on that a little bit. Mike alluded to this in the intro. A lot of the folks in the OER realm have long said, if you remove the cost barrier, you will get greater access to materials. And if you have greater access, you're going to have greater outcomes. And I'm just wondering, based on your research, what you've seen, and some other studies like the access hypothesis,

Where do you see the tension of what is believed or what is presented as fact versus what you've actually studied and you've seen evidence for?

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (09:02.062)
Yeah, so what I found, I did a meta-analysis and it involved something like 100,000 students and around two dozen studies. I can't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head. And what I found was just statistical equivalence between commercial textbooks and open textbooks. And I was specifically looking at textbooks. So.

I found that encouraging because that showed there wasn't a negative effect, which was a lot of the criticism and concerns about adopting open textbooks is, well, if they're free, they must not be any good. Now, other people pointed out like, wait, but if students are having more access now, why aren't they doing better? And there are some reasons for that. One is that I had no student level information.

So I was able to look at information in terms of the kind of course and the kind of research design involved. I didn't find that it varied depending on that. But other work has found that there are specific benefits or greater negative repercussions for certain groups of students. know, there's the access hypothesis. know, it specifically argued that

only a certain percentage is really going to benefit from OER because the number of students who would use and read a textbook if it were freely available is not the overwhelming majority of students. Especially when we think about all of the ways that students, especially back when they were paper, all of the cost-saving workarounds that students had. Being able to share materials, using library reserves.

getting used copies and my personal favorite was finding pirated versions online, which I've had students ask me why I didn't tell them about that. Like, well, it's illegal. Not going to stop you, but I'm not going to guide you that way. So.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (11:17.634)
That is, so the fact that students were already finding cost saving techniques is an important factor. And that, you know, some students were, there's certain groups of students though that would be more likely to be in that beneficial percentage. So we have found, for example, Culver's famous study or should be famous. I think it's a great study looking at affordable learning in Georgia.

with Pell Grant recipients, finding a specific benefit for Pell Grant recipients. Now, that being a proxy for financial need, that makes sense. I found a very specific group when I looked at a multi-institutional data set from Maryland where it was older than average, so over 25, and on campus,

full-time students were most likely to have a benefit of open textbooks. And the thinking was is, you know, students who, and that was something specific for enrollment intensity. The thinking was is that, you know, as we get older, we should become more responsible and more mature.

And these students who were older than their peers, who were on campus and going full time and able to take on more credits and weren't online part-time and maxed out, were able to afford more credits because they had the cost savings from the textbooks. So you do see these patterns where there are specific groups where you see enhanced benefits, but you don't necessarily see much of an overall improved outcome.

That said, $1,200 savings for no noted detriment is huge. I mean, if we were talking about a pharmaceutical intervention, that would be considered amazing is if you know, if a consumer could save $1,200 a year and have the same outcomes. Also, when looking at course withdrawal rates, specifically,

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (13:35.542)
I did find an overall reduction in the number of students who withdrew from their course if they had an open textbook compared to a commercial textbook. Now, students withdraw from courses for all kinds of reasons, but logically thinking that having a book readily available for free could be a lever that would keep a student in the class if it

if that was something that was available versus finding out I absolutely have to buy this textbook. I can't find a less expensive version and I can't just download it right now. I have to go figure out where I can find a physical copy. So I do remember seeing some of my students in my Intro to Psych course when I used a commercial textbook.

looking online for where to buy the textbook during class when we were going over an assignment that required that they use the textbook.

Brittany Dudek (14:38.025)
That happens a lot with students looking for the alternative or finding the textbook as we get to that spot. One of the things that we talk about a lot is kind of why, what else we should focus on besides just the cost savings. Cost savings with OER is sexy. It's the thing that administration cares about, our legislative cares about. But there's so many other things. You've touched on a lot of them, like the DWF rates, our nontraditional students.

having more time or, you know, higher. Yes. Yes. I mean, there's so many reasons for all of that, right. And I think you've touched on a number of things that we can spend an entire podcast talking about. So maybe we could shift and talk a little bit about some of the motivation.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (15:11.062)
Increased enrollment intensity is the fancy term. They take more credits per term.

Brittany Dudek (15:32.512)
And so like open pedagogy, for example, it really emphasizes student agency and engagement. And I'm interested in your viewpoint from a psychological perspective. What do you think drives student motivation in these contexts? Right? So why do they become engaged in the open pedagogy space? I can understand, I think, from a non-traditional student, maybe the students who return to college who are more engaged in their education.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (15:32.814)
Mm-hmm.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (15:51.086)
Mm-hmm.

Brittany Dudek (16:02.515)
But sometimes I do have to say I struggle a little bit with more traditional students. work in community colleges, so we have a lot of non-traditional students or a lot of workforce. But from a of a traditional university perspective, or really anyone, what are your thoughts on that?

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (16:20.824)
So, great question. Thank you, Brittany. I got interested in motivation because I wanted to look at the student experience, like you said, beyond their grades and their cost savings with OER and be able to look at more nuanced experiences with.

some of the affordances of open education, such as open pedagogy. And I can actually answer your question quite confidently that based on the data, students are report being more motivated with open pedagogy compared to traditional assignments. So open pedagogy assignments being ones that are renewable in some ways that

one phrase that I don't remember who put it, they add value to the world and they live outside of the course and are seen by someone other than the instructor. So the reasons for that motivation I found fit well into what's called the self-determination theory and in this framework

Brittany Dudek (17:13.139)
of that.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (17:33.35)
your motivation for doing something is based on your autonomy, your relatedness and having these basic fulfillment of psychological needs. If you promise to edit it out, can I Google quick? There's always a third one. Competence. It's based on your autonomy relatedness.

and competence feelings. And when you have those, then you're going to be more likely to experience intrinsic motivation, which is enjoyment and interest for the sake of doing something as opposed to a reward, such as a grade or a paycheck. So with Open Pedagogy Autonomy, students usually get to pick their project. They get to have choice in what they are working on.

And they tend to have opportunities for creativity. those feelings can be very freeing for students and make them feel empowered. With relatedness, open pedagogy often involves some kind of collaborative or group project. And that, for one, helps with having those peer-to-peer connections. There's also a student's report having a

better relationship with the instructor because it's seen as just a more valuable, interesting project, which I'll get to value that kind of value it a little bit. So that helps with the relatedness with the instructor. And also, even if they don't know them, if they know that this is being shared outside the course, they can feel a connection or like that they're getting to help others. And then there is

competence where students, this was the one I was most worried about, was competence because it's new and it's different. And especially if it's going to be published and publicly available, that can be scary for students, especially if they're novices in whatever the course is about. But thankfully, my students and other research done on this topic has shown that

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (19:57.678)
Students experience greater feelings of confidence, you know, maybe because the guidelines are better laid out or because they get to have those choices and pursue their interests. Students also just say it's more interesting and enjoyable, like inherently they like the process more than just writing a traditional essay or taking a test.

Something that I've started to look at, and I want to delve into more, is the potential for open pedagogy to be motivating through the opportunity to help others. So in the expectancy value framework, which is a really commonly used approach to understanding motivation, there's the idea that your motivation is a mathematical formula. It's how well you expect to do times how much value you have in the task.

Brittany Dudek (20:32.723)
Hmm.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (20:51.33)
So, you know, somebody could offer me a million dollars to run a three hour marathon. I'm going to have no motivation because I know I can't do that. But if it were something I could do and I was offered a, you know, a large sum of money, which has an extrinsic value, yeah, I would be incredibly motivated to do that. And with open pedagogy, that value component could be the value of helping others.

like having that opportunity and that feeling of what's called communal value. This has not been looked at much because, you know, our frameworks of motivation have been developed in very individualistic, you know, cultures and having that mindset. So the emphasis for value has been personal value. Like, what is the student getting out of it or what are you getting out of it if you're looking outside the educational context?

With this, would be whether it relates to their personal life or experiences or their goals. So is doing this something that will help them better train for their career or help them in something else they want out of life? So right now I have one study in the works where we're writing up or we're finding that students did note that the opportunity to help others would be

more appealing or there were higher levels of it with that open pedagogy compared to closed.

Kevin Corcoran (22:26.542)
Virginia, can I ask you a question about that proposed study that you'd love to do? Do you think that generations or age brackets will have a factor on that? And the reason why I ask is I've been doing a lot of research myself or maybe research with a small r on Gen Z, Gen Alpha, and how the alphas are looking more at relevancy.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (22:50.51)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Corcoran (22:54.298)
and if they're going to invest the time and effort into a work, how does it benefit them or the community at large? I just wonder if you have the opportunity to go forward with this, do you expect to see generational differences in your outcomes?

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (23:08.108)
You know, I had thought about that. I should clarify this. actually did a study. We're working on writing it up. But it was an experimental, what's called a vignette study, where students are randomly assigned to read a description. And in this case, it's a description of a course. And in that course, there is either an open pedagogy assignment described or a closed pedagogy assignment.

described without using those terms because these are college students.

That is something we actually did fine with that. Now that's a very artificial, but it is also a very controlled setting. I also noticed anecdotally that this in open-ended responses, this is something students write about what they like about open pedagogy is that they're helping others. So that was something that's prompted me to do that. In the communal value literature that I've read, which there's maybe five, six studies ever on this topic.

The focus has been more for students of color, minoritized students, students from more collectivistic cultures. I have not seen anything generationally, but I wouldn't imagine that if relevance is more pertinent to motivation with certain generations, you would see any kind of relevance would enhance the value and subsequently the motivation.

Mike Mills (24:43.27)
When I was at Montgomery College before I retired, I had co-founded a faculty fellowship that combined open pedagogy and the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. And students had to go out into the community and make changes to their community. And to your point about that communal impact, it struck a chord with them. They really felt motivated to make changes within their own environment.

I want to shift gears, if I could, Virginia, to the faculty decision-making process. We know faculty use OER for a variety of reasons, financial, ethical. But what guidance would you give faculty to ensure that they're also making evidence-based decisions when selecting instructional materials?

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (25:32.736)
Yes, that's a great question. It's kind of funny. I have done one singular study on faculty. It's a group. Well, and open education. I have some students who are interested in faculty research that I've helped with. But to answer your question, what to tell faculty and what I have to

told faculty when looking at the evidence is that the evidence doesn't show any benefit of that price tag on course materials. And to really think about whether or not that book is necessary or those materials are necessary. And

I also like to point out the benefits of open textbooks beyond cost. Now, I think most faculty are concerned about the cost of college attendance if for no other reason than self-preservation. mean, if people don't go to college, we're not going to have jobs.

You know, we're generally in these rules because we care about students and we want to help their education and they can't do that if they can't afford to go to college.

Mike Mills (26:58.926)
It's almost, no, no, I was just going to add, it's almost like telling faculty you're not going to do any harm to students by using an open textbook. If the learning outcomes are comparable, if the evidence suggests it's comparable, you're not doing any harm by saving them $300 on a textbook.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (26:59.128)
But something that, go ahead.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (27:21.708)
Right. And I also like to point out the advantages for faculty. You don't have to deal with the publisher constantly changing the textbook on you and reorganizing the information and having to reorganize everything in your syllabus accordingly. You have power to edit open materials, which is something.

that I encourage faculty to keep in mind when they're like, well, I've read this, but I didn't like this one section. I'm like, well, delete it. You don't have to keep it. There's no point in keeping it. I just cut out two thirds of what my child development book said about Freud because he really was not as influential as he's made out to be when we think about what we know currently about child development.

And that's an advantage. You don't have that kind of freedom with a commercial textbook. That if there are mistakes in the textbook, I remember I had a commercial textbook with tons of mistakes called the company complaining. They set up a meeting with me to address it and...

they were like, okay, we're definitely gonna report this mistake. And then proceeded to try to get me to have my students pay to do homework through their publisher website. So that's another thing. When I had caught a mistake in an open textbook and I let OpenStax know, they...

not only fixed it, but checked with me to make sure it was something the fix made sense. And that's, it's just a completely different motivation if you have an open textbook and dealing with whoever the developer is than if you have a commercial textbook.

Mike Mills (29:28.39)
Before I turn to Kevin, Virginia, I just want to tell you, you've upended my entire high school and undergrad years by removing Freud. I didn't know there was anyone else.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (29:42.806)
now basically have one short paragraph that's like, existed, moving on.

Yeah, nobody really follows Freud's theories anymore, and they've not held up empirically. So I'm not sure why he was getting so much real estate in the textbook.

Brittany Dudek (30:05.085)
I mean, we can come up with a few reasons. Probably. Why?

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (30:07.166)
I know, I know, I'm sure we can.

Kevin Corcoran (30:11.938)
I was gonna try to...

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (30:12.248)
They're not scientific.

Kevin Corcoran (30:15.45)
was going to try to weave in between some of the questions we've asked and some of the responses you had, especially around your study previously with commercial material. You were just talking about homework or closed homework systems. Have you had the opportunity to do any research on inclusive access or equity access programs?

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (30:35.598)
I literally submitted a grant proposal today to do that. So I'm just saying I would love to. I have a great plan, but it is something where the amount of number crunching and data collection involved, I would need to pay for student support. So that's what my grant would do is it would pay for a graduate student to assist with the compiling the data.

I have asked around as far as people who are at institutions with inclusive access and if they'd be willing to share data sets that wouldn't have to be compiled. No such luck. And I was told that institutional access agreements generally prohibit institutions from actually testing their data and sharing it.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (31:38.998)
Sorry, I just was thinking about something else.

Kevin Corcoran (31:39.418)
It's just, no, that's fine. And I was just going to mention the only research I've seen done on this topic is a couple of years ago from the University of Tennessee at Knoxville.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (31:49.216)
Yes, Elizabeth Spika. Yeah, it's a great study. So, and she did, she found that there really was no difference, but I mean, there weren't open textbooks in the sample and she also didn't find that Pell Grant recipients received a benefit. There was a smaller study done at Waukesha Technical College that did find a little bit of a benefit for inclusive access, which if having materials helps with learning makes sense. Now the question.

Kevin Corcoran (31:50.776)
Yeah.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (32:18.786)
becomes, does that benefit outweigh open materials?

Kevin Corcoran (32:26.797)
I hope you get that.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (32:26.944)
And also, is it worth the money? Because anecdotally, I've talked to students who are at institutions with inclusive access and they don't even know what they're paying. They just see it as part of their tuition and they're like, great, my book just shows up in my course learning management site. So wondering if they could have gotten it for cheaper through other means just never occurred to them because I don't think students really question their tuition bills.

Kevin Corcoran (32:57.722)
Well, I know that Mike, Brittany, and Zach, who's not with us today, and I have been part of a handful of panel conversations talking about inclusive access and OER coexisting. So I'm going to say we're rooting for you to get that grant.

Brittany Dudek (33:13.545)
Yes, we are.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (33:14.094)
Well, good. Good. From your lips to the funder's ears.

Brittany Dudek (33:16.927)
So we've talked a little bit about the non-traditional learners and kind of the effect of OER or open education on those learners. But I'm curious about the courses that you teach or any of the research that you've done in the different types of course modalities. I work primarily in online education in the community college level. And

We have about 40 % of our courses that use zero textbook cost materials. And so we can kind of see how that generally affects the DWFs and enrollment trends. But I'm interested to know if you've done any or what your research says on the modality, either purely online courses, synchronous, asynchronous, hybrid, remote synchronous, or anything like that.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (34:10.412)
Yes. So I did look at modality with Maryland and all the data were pre-COVID. So this actually was a COVID project and analyzing the data, not collecting the data. And I did not find any inherent interaction between open and online. the designation for online was pretty much, they were

mostly online asynchronous and most institutions didn't differentiate the different forms of online. So it was just, is it online or is it face to face was how I, how I categorized it. And I didn't find a specific interaction. I know there has been kind of an argument that students who go online are more likely to be non-traditional students and that they're more likely to

be tech savvy. you know, thinking back to traditional textbooks back when they were all paper, you'd have less of an issue there. But I haven't had that actual finding in my research. I mostly teach graduate level courses. So I do teach online courses and I teach zero or open, zero cost or open.

Brittany Dudek (35:21.908)
Yeah.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (35:40.236)
materials in all of my courses. And students have definitely expressed appreciation or checked in with me like, you're sure I don't have to buy anything. But I haven't really noticed a difference. But I mean, those are graduate students who have a certain level of privilege for getting to that stage.

Brittany Dudek (36:02.719)
So what you're saying then is that I should find funding because one of my other roles is managing the course materials for all of our online pooled classes. So I've got an intimate look into the challenges with our inclusive access courses that our open education courses don't have with the setups and all of that. So it's very interesting, the dichotomy of my role.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (36:06.582)
Yes!

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (36:14.22)
Okay.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (36:30.734)
I do have concerns, and this isn't specific to online courses, but this does relate back to inclusive access, about the accessibility of the e-textbook platforms for inclusive access textbooks. Commercial e-textbooks tend to only be obtainable through their proprietary websites and screen software, their e-text layout and software.

And well, you can't download it, which means there is the barrier of you have to have active Wi-Fi in order to be able to read it. You can't print it, which I know some students prefer paper, even though very few actually print out. But it is nice that, you know, students do appreciate and I have seen them with paper copies of their open materials. And what

I found particularly upsetting was that for at least one platform, in order to have the audio function work, the screen reader function play, you have to click at a certain spot and then drag and then click again, which means you have to be able to see the screen in order to play the audio.

Brittany Dudek (37:54.483)
Seems like some Title II challenges will be forthcoming.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (37:58.476)
Yes, yes. So I don't know how this is going. And if commercial companies are addressing it, they really need to. there's also image issues where there isn't alt text or the alt text just says image.

Mike Mills (38:19.216)
Virginia, I think that Maryland study that you keep referring to is one that we did at Montgomery College as part of the Achieving the Dream grant. And as you were talking about it, I was having flashbacks.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (38:26.284)
Yes! Yes!

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (38:31.192)
When you mentioned Montgomery College, I was like, I think that was in my data set. I'm pretty sure, like 90 % sure.

Mike Mills (38:35.535)
Yep.

I want to talk about faculty, continue talking about faculty. And if you have a faculty member who's excited about OER but not sure how to evaluate its effectiveness for their students, what practical steps do you faculty?

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (38:54.382)
But the easiest way is just to compare grades on the first exam with the, or grades on the exams or grades on the course as a whole. And to just see if there's a shift. I know that at least with my office of institutional research, I can also get data like standardized test scores and high school GPA and some basic student.

demographic data, I can get course level information so I can see if students are starting out about radically different places or if they're comparable in terms of academic preparedness. And I mean, that would be really how to evaluate the outcomes. As far as selecting an OER, I mean, it's the same as how somebody would select a commercial textbook.

And if you normally go off of recommendations from your peers, then find somebody in open education in your field and ask them.

Mike Mills (40:06.456)
Wonderful, thank you. This has been a great conversation. You're talking to three data nerds who are really excited about this research that you've provided. It is that time of the episode where we are gonna end with a really bad joke and I'm gonna turn it to Kevin.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (40:11.448)
Wonderful.

Kevin Corcoran (40:27.551)
All here we go. Why don't OER ever get locked out?

because they always have open access.

Mike Mills (40:38.163)
my gosh, Kevin. That is really bad. And with that, the mic is closed.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (40:39.894)
that's bad.

Kevin Corcoran (40:42.074)
Yeah.

CDL Video (40:48.35)
Alright, don't go anywhere. I'm stopping the recording.

Virginia Clinton-Lisell (40:51.334)
My husband does love dad jokes.

Brittany Dudek (40:51.623)
That was a bad one.